Higher authority: Kim Beazley, Andrew Hastie, Malcolm Turnbull, Penny Wong and Kristina Keneally.
On July 21st and July 23rd, 2018, "Stephen Williamson" wrote:
Subject: The Australian checking out Planetshakers in Melbourne, and talking about belief with Andrew Hastie, Kim Beazley, Malcolm Turnbull, Bill Shorten, Penny Wong, dear Lord reach them all :-)
By Greg Sheridan, THE AUSTRALIAN, July 23rd, 2018 9 min read 105 Comments
Higher authority: Kim Beazley, Andrew Hastie, Malcolm Turnbull, Penny Wong and Kristina Keneally.
When Andrew Hastie went to Afghanistan on combat service with the SAS he wrote a letter to his wife, Ruth, the envelope sealed with wax, to be opened by her only in the event of his death....
He left the letter with a friend, who was to be part of the notification team, the small group that would go and see Hastie's wife if the worst happened.
The West Australian Liberal MP's parents have deep religious beliefs. Hastie rebelled against his dad's beliefs for a while: "Around age 16 to 19 I was very aggressively challenging a lot of what I was taught. The question for me was: can I still be a good person without God? I had embraced the postmodern view I got at school - that I was a consumer and I could make any choices I liked. Partly I wanted to justify under-age drinking and having a good time."
In 2000 his father took him to Biola University, an evangelical Christian university in California. On that trip he met Chuck Colson, the Nixon staffer who went to jail for his Watergate crimes, found God there and later got heavily involved in the Christian mission to prisoners in jail. Hastie also read a book about Christian belief: "The author started off with the empty self, describing narcissistic, modern man, and I felt he was describing me. That led me to ask the question, did I accept the basic tenets of Christianity? The next question was: how do I practise Christianity? What implications does it have for my weekends, boozing and trying to sleep with as many girls as possible?"
In one tragic incident in Afghanistan, Hastie called in American helicopter support to fire on two Taliban fighters who were planning to attack Hastie's soldiers and the Afghan base they were visiting when the helicopters came to pick them up. Hastie knew this because the Taliban signals had been intercepted.
In the worst moment of Hastie's life, the helicopters shot the wrong Afghans, killing two little boys, brothers aged six and seven. Hastie took control of his own emotional state, took a few soldiers with him to go out to where the boys had been shot and see if they were still alive and if there was any chance of saving them, then reported everything back to his bosses. He didn't eat or sleep for the next 24 hours and for a long time had nightmares about it. The boys are still regularly in his mind.
Later, he pushed to be allowed to go and talk to the boys' family: "It was about telling the truth and taking responsibility. I wanted to apologise to the boys' uncle. The uncle was about 45 or 50, with a grey, weather-beaten face. He had assumed the role of defender of the family. The 16-year-old brother, you could see the anger on his face. The uncle acknowledged the approach and said: 'You're forgiven.' For me, this prefigured divine forgiveness."
This tragedy didn't shake Hastie's Christian faith: "Imagine if you weren't a Christian, if you were a closed universe atheist, how bleak and senseless those deaths would be."
'I think of religion as a mystery. Just as poetry is that which cannot be translated, faith is in many ways that which cannot be explained'
- Malcolm Turnbull
'I don't believe we just end' … Senator Penny Wong. Photo: AAP I catch up with senator Penny Wong for a discussion in the comprehensively anonymous offices made available to federal politicians when they visit Melbourne. It is the only discussion I've had with her where she seemed a fraction hesitant or nervous. I feel a bit like a dentist, inflicting pain for a (hopefully) greater good.
She says: "I don't think faith for me is an intellectual exercise. It's a much more instinctive, intuitive proposition. It's hard to talk about, isn't it? The way I like to approach politics, I like to be very rational and factually based and well prepared and talk about things in logical sequences, and I don't think I've ever felt about faith that way."
Faith is certainly not irrational, however: "The important decisions in our lives we make with reference to what we work with intellectually as much as we can, but they're generally made emotionally and spiritually …
"It's a very diverse religion, Christianity. Perhaps I have a certain view because I was born in Sabah (Malaysia). Growing up in a multi-faith society was important. I had friends who were Muslims, family members who were Buddhist as well as those who were Christian. I never had the sense that this (Christianity) is the only way. I always felt there were many paths to God. This was the kind of path that resonated with me.
"When times have been hard, at different times of my life, when I've felt alone or lonely, faith has been important to me. There are also moments of joy when you can feel faith or feel grace. You're with your family and you feel blessed. It's good to be thankful." And prayer? "Yes (I do pray). I'm less at church than I used to be. I used to go to Sunday morning communion more often. You pray at different moments, moments when you're quiet. I have to have moments when I find a bit of calm in my life. If I don't, I don't perform … I don't think of God as a power to go to with a shopping list. I think more of asking for the patience or courage to cope. For me, it's more asking that he walk with me.
"If I'm with my father and his side of the family, prayer is a much more explicit side of their life. He'll say grace and give thanks for the family. I do find being in church incredibly moving."
And what does Wong believe happens when we die? "I don't know. I don't believe we just end."
'There are aspects of faith and religion that don't bear analysis' … Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull. Photo: AP I was fascinated a few years back to see that Malcolm Turnbull had, as it was presented at the time, converted to Catholicism. As it turned out, the Prime Minister discovered that he had not been christened at all as a child, so it was not exactly a conversion. Certainly it was an embrace.
In private contexts, Turnbull is quite natural and forthcoming about his faith. When former Labor politician Mary Easson was gravely ill, Turnbull sent a message to her husband, Michael, saying: "Lucy and I are storming the gates of heaven itself with our prayers for Mary." Easson herself remembers that when, after her miraculous recovery, she ran into Turnbull at Parliament House, he hugged and hugged her. She was touched by his prayers, and his warmth.
Turnbull is clear that he does believe in the Christian faith. The way he conceives of it, as you'd expect, is individualistic, supple, nuanced. That is not to say it is better or worse than anyone else's belief or lack of belief, but this is the way Turnbull conceives of religion.
He says: "I think of religion as a mystery. Just as poetry is that which cannot be translated, faith is in many ways that which cannot be explained. The Western tradition obviously wants to analyse and categorise everything. It's important to remember that Christianity grew as a religion of the East. It grew out of a spiritual world which was a very mystical one. There are aspects of faith and religion that don't bear analysis."
Turnbull is not suggesting that faith is against reason, but that parts of it are beyond reason: "I think mystery is a very important part of it. Everything we do and believe and feel is not capable of the precise analysis of an economist or a chemist."
Turnbull nominates the "selfless love of Jesus" as being close to the heart of Christianity and says that when we love selflessly is when we get closest to the divine.
I ask Turnbull if he prays: "Yes, I do. I'm cautious about talking about it. You've asked me a straight question and I've answered it."
'When I first moved to Australia, I was struck by the absence of religion from the public conversation' … Labor Senator Kristina Keneally. Photo: AAP There was a time Kristina Keneally was angry with God, deeply angry. Grief-stricken, devastated, Keneally was reacting to her daughter, Caroline, being stillborn in 1999. When Keneally talks of her daughter, even today, she often uses the present tense: "I have a stillborn daughter, Caroline. She's my second child. I had this real sense I felt I knew how to have a baby. It hit me very hard. I can remember being very angry with God."
At the same time, faith did not desert her: "I remember having gratitude that I did have faith, that Caroline's life continued on, that she was not extinguished. At the same time, I was very angry that she wasn't with me, that God could let this happen."
I catch up with the US-born Keneally for a long discussion about her religious beliefs in Sydney.
She says: "When I first moved to Australia, I was struck by the absence of religion from the public conversation, the lack even of people to talk to about these things. I was starting a doctorate and at parties people would say: 'What did you study?' And I'd say religion and the conversation would end. They'd turn away, nothing more to be said.
"Then I joined the Labor Party. It was like: Oh, I found them. Politicians are more likely to be churchgoing than the population as a whole. They're joiners, they're inspired by social justice, they're not embarrassed about saying they go to mass on Sunday.
"There's still a lack of comfort about politicians of faith who talk publicly about the inspiration of their faith. That's partly because while politicians tend to be more churchgoing than the population as a whole, they are reported on by journalists who tend to be less churchgoing than the general population."
I ask whether the New Atheists have had any impact on her thinking: "It's not persuasive to me to say that Christians have done some bad things; therefore, the Christian God does not exist. I believe human beings have a spiritual dimension.
"Virtually all cultures, including the Aboriginal culture, have a sense of connection with the spiritual dimension."
What does Keneally believe comes after death?
"I believe I will continue to exist in some kind of spiritual dimension. The idea of existence forever somewhat terrifies me; inasmuch as I don't want to be extinguished, my human mind cannot wrap itself around eternity … I believe I will be one with God."
'Invariably you pray at crisis points' … former Deputy PM Kim Beazley. Photo: Ross Swanborough I put Keneally's suggestion that politicians are likelier to be religious than the general population to Kim Beazley. He thinks she's right: "I agree that there is a much higher level of practice and belief among politicians.
"There is no such thing as a quiet soul in politics. You're basically worried all the time in politics. You're always anxious, always dealing with complex motivations and complex people. Also, politicians get isolated and the more isolated you get the more you need your religion."
Faith remains fundamental to Beazley.
"I pray spasmodically. Invariably you pray at crisis points. And in ambassadorial life (Beazley was Australian ambassador to the US for six years), in ministerial life and in political life, you're engaged in lots of crisis points.
"You don't use prayer to seek an outcome for yourself; you use it to gain peace of mind.
"When I have been worried about my children I have prayed. You're more likely to turn to your religion at times of stress.
"At times your doubts seem to overwhelm you. At different points of time you feel you've got a divine element in your life, then it goes away and you wonder if it was an illusion."
What does Beazley believe happens after death?
"I don't know. My faith tells me there is an afterlife, but your faith doesn't tell you what it is. You have a sense that there will be something there.
"The people you've been close to, you feel a sense from time to time that they are still with you."
Penny Wong
Malcolm Turnbull
Kristina Keneally
Kim Beazley
Edited extracts from Greg Sheridan's book God is Good for You: A Defence of Christianity in Troubled Times, which will be published by Allen & Unwin on Wednesday.
Greg Sheridan is a foreign affairs journalist and commentator. He joined The Australian in 1984 and worked in Beijing, Washington, and Canberra before starting his tenure as the paper's foreign editor in 1992. He specialises in Asian politics and has written four books on the topic.
Click here to skip to Planet Shakers interview and further interviews with Malcolm Turnbull, Bill Shorten, Penny Wong, Kristine Keneally and Mike Baird
105 COMMENTS 316 people listening Sean 31 MINUTES AGO There are definitely comforting reasons to be a believer but for me, that's just not convincing. Still, I prefer the espousing of Christianity to the espousing of PC. The former is less dangerous. Joy 38 MINUTES AGO Read and re-read Andrew Hastie and Kim Beazley's contribution. Both are men of unmistakeable sincerity, integrity and compassion. Beazley was the best PM we never had. Hastie will be the best PM we one day, hopefully soon, will have. As for the rest featured in this story. their confected mush is not worth the paper it's printed on. Larry 39 MINUTES AGO Wow… I had no idea Penny Wong had a sense of God. It puts her in a new light to me. Proves how wrong a man can be. Should look at myself a bit more closely. ...Vicki 45 MINUTES AGO I dont have a problem with politicians having a religion, however I do have a problem with a spirit guiding their political actions. And as for Hastie's comment on the deaths of the children "Imagine if you weren't a Christian, if you were a closed universe atheist, how bleak and senseless those deaths would be." Those deaths were bleak and senseless. Children died, for no good reason. 3 LIKE Kevin 50 MINUTES AGO 🇦🇺Christianity poses the biggest threat to the Communist aspiration to dominate the world. More strength to those who choose to believe. 2 LIKE Michael 52 MINUTES AGO Interesting article, LNP and ALP. Reminds me of a soccer match where players in both teams often pray for a good result which means God is on a winner either way. David 54 MINUTES AGO Just think if they were perceived not to believe. OMG! Peter 57 MINUTES AGO Christianity a minor Jewish sect is an accident of two Empires the Roman and British Russel l 1 HOUR AGO Great that this was published. Western culture has been shaped both good and bad by Christianity so before we throw the baby out with the bathwater it's important to see how it still continues to shape us through our leadership. 1 LIKE Igor 1 HOUR AGO We all want illumination in our lives, a light to follow. We all want a map, because getting lost is so stressful. We all want a guidebook, because without a guide we may make a serious mistake. I used to look to God. These days I look to Google. 2 LIKE Chris 1 HOUR AGO Just back from a trip out west. Absorbed lots of insight into indigenous beliefs and morality teaching. Creation stories are of course pretty basic (at least at the level we Westerners are allowed to hear). You can kind of understand how new generations believe this stuff when it is what they are brought up to and have no other frame of reference. Those with a Western education however, really have no excuse for religion. We do know better. Wake up! 3 LIKE Max 1 HOUR AGO Religion is a personal thing. The state should have no role. So why does the head of the Anglican Church reign over us, as a birthright? 1 LIKE Eric1 HOUR AGO Very interested to hear about the war experiences of Andrew Hastie, as he is the genuine article, the words of the other politicians will never 'cut much ice,' with me. Grew up Cof E, which failed to resonate much, struck a few tough patches in my life so I began to investigate Buddhism, very helpful in facing up to the realities of life but after a while I concluded that whilst 'accepting,' what happens to you, Buddhism gives you no means of remedying injustice. Christianity to me is incredibly valuable as it has the means of giving HOPE that one day you may be able to change your circumstances for the better, that is why it will continue to come back even if it is repressed for years as in the USSR, last century. EAV 5 LIKE Michael 1 HOUR AGO Some good examples of cafeteria following of Christ and His words. Damien1 HOUR AGO Why have the non-believers bothered commenting on the article? Seems there is a lot of underlying doubt about. DJD 5 LIKE David 49 MINUTES AGO @Damien Wishful thinking on your behalf there Damien. 1 LIKE Peter 43 MINUTES AGO @Damien sure is …. Russ34 MINUTES AGO @Damien Nope, just always a concern when political "leaders" and myths begin to mix. 1 LIKE Ross1 HOUR AGO Good for you The Australian for publishing this! An inspiring read. No chance of seeing anything uplifting like this in the Fairfax press :P 12 LIKE Mr Bernard R 1 HOUR AGO It's about time the media stood up for our heritage and western civilisation which, by and large is a reflection of Platonic and Christian teachings. 1 LIKE Peter 1 HOUR AGO Glad there is no heaven, imagine being stuck there with all the politicians? 7 LIKE Terry D 1 HOUR AGO Should I be glad that you won't be with me heaven? (By your own admission.) 3 LIKE David1 HOUR AGO @Terry D That's something no one will ever know. Russ33 MINUTES AGO @Terry D Ain't no one will be there Terry. 1 LIKE Ross 1 HOUR AGO Is that the same Christianity that for hundreds of years dragged non believers out of their homes and tortured them or burned them alive if they did not believe? Or is that the same Christianity that seriously believes God sent himself to earth to born of a virgin, stayed in a small part of the middle east then got himself killed, the sprang back to life then disappeared for 2000 years never to be seen or heard again. 9 LIKE Monarchist 1 HOUR AGO @Ross The second one, or a less caricatured version of it. But you already knew that. 10 LIKE David 1 HOUR AGO @Ross Neither of those versions are the Christianity written about in the Bible. 11 LIKE Tickle 1 HOUR AGO @Ross It's also the Christianity that torture people who wanted to read the Bible in their native English. The learned priests wanted all interpretation in their own hands. 4 LIKE John1 HOUR AGO @Ross "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God". 2 LIKE Terry D 1 HOUR AGO It's not that the Son of God has disappeared for 2,000 years, it's just that he doesn't reveal himself to disbelievers/atheists unless they repent and start believing: "Judas asked him - the other Judas, not Iscariot - 'Lord, what can have happened, that you mean to disclose yourself to us alone and not to the world?'" Mr Bernard R 1 HOUR AGO @Ross, none of the things you speak about reflect the teachings of Christ aka Christianity. Human beings are capable of the most horrendous actions. It has nothing whatsoever to do with their religious beliefs, although they may well use religion in their ignorance to justify those actions. The atheistic communists have slaughtered more innocent people in the 20th century alone than so called 'Christians' have in the previous 2000 years. 1 LIKE Larry 38 MINUTES AGO @Ross Pretty much on the mark.. .done by men, not God. And Christ hasn't disappeared… he's here on a daily basis. Peter 1 HOUR AGO At each census the number who state no religion or simply ignore the question grows where today it is a majority . Christianity will go the way of the Druids just practised by oddballs .. 8 LIKE Catriona 1 HOUR AGO Good article. I like the way you quote the pollies, it's such a private thing, religion, and not easy to talk about especially publicly. 7 LIKE Konrad1 HOUR AGO Complex topic. Infanticide? Ripping out the heart of a living person to please the sun god? Circumcision? Conflicting interpretations of religious writings? Uncertainty re distance heaven is from earth. 6 LIKE Mr Bernard R 1 HOUR AGO @Konrad, what are you talking about? None of the things you listed are mentioned in the New Testament teachings of Christ, so where are you getting your information from? 3 LIKE James 2 HOURS AGO "Politicians are more likely to be churchgoing than the population as a whole." Really? Or are they just more likely to say they are and to make sure they are seen in church? After all you don't lose any atheist votes by going to church, but you lose plenty of Christian votes by declaring atheism. 9 LIKE Chris1 HOUR AGO @James You are more likely to lose votes these days by associating with the Church. 4 LIKE Colin1 HOUR AGO @James I'd say the reverse is more likely. I was genuinely surprised, in fact, to learn of, for instance, Wong and Beazley's faith. 2 LIKE Christine 1 HOUR AGO @Colin Really? Read A book of Beazley's life. He did overseas volunteer work in India (I think it was) when just out of school. patrick2 HOURS AGO if you can't work it out for yourself and you need a church to guide you we are in all sorts. 7 LIKE David 1 HOUR AGO @patrick What did you work out? 3 LIKE Lisle1 HOUR AGO @ patrick Had you been watching "First Civilizations" on SBS, you would realise the importance religion in its various forms has played in the evolution of our species. I have no time for the cynical approach to religion today where it's okay to do anything you like without consideration of others. 6 LIKE Mary 2 HOURS AGO I am sitting in a hospital waiting room waiting for my 6 monthly meeting with my surgeon 30 months after cancer surgery. While I was in this hospital after the surgery s priest walked into the ward and came to my bed. I was quite shocked as during the time I had been there no-one else had been visited by a priest. Turned out that when I was admitted my partner was asked if I had a religious faith. He told them I was a Catholic, even though I hadn't been near a church in decades. That visit brought huge comfort to me during what was a terrible chapter in my life. The church does still have a place in society and I am now more aware of the place of faith in our lives. 36 LIKE Paul 2 HOURS AGO @Mary And maybe a secular social worker could have helped you more or even a Buddhist monk but your religious presence stood in the way. 5 LIKE Wendy 1 HOUR AGO @Paul What a mean spirited . A person who finds comfort cannot be argued with. It's their experience. 18 LIKE Gentle Will 1 HOUR AGO @Mary. Paul, Mary was relating an experience personal to herself and you seize on it to make some mean-spirited snipe at the Catholic aspect of it. Why do you feel driven to do this? If it doesn't matter to you, then why do you feel the need to goad a person for her simple and beautiful story? Yours is a rather empty and arrogant response. I am tempted to assume that you think that you have complete control of your life and that you believe that you are far too intelligent to believe in God- after all, He is our 'imaginary friend' and this glib phrase immediately negates 2,000 years of intellectual rigour in philosophy and theology. I would assume that you do not feel the need to read or study the scholars of the Catholic Church before you criticise it. Mary, to talk to a priest is to talk to a person who has experience both in the secular and the spiritual. A good priest has wisdom and spirituality- secular counsels do not have that extra dimension. When we are facing our mortality we get a perspective on our life and we can see our individual value to God. These moments are precious, as it gives us the opportunity to grow. The fact that, even though you had not attended Church for many years, nevertheless you were open at the moment of need is a special grace. Your gratitude is well placed and you should perhaps see the incident as a beautiful opportunity to reassess the things that are important in your life. 13 LIKE Colin1 HOUR AGO @Mary YouTuber ComputingForever has an excellent video where he discusses, despite his personal unbelief, the important role religion plays in society. I highly recommend it. 2 LIKE Christine 1 HOUR AGO @Paul Read Andrew Hastie's statement again! you might recognise your own shot comings!! Greg 2 HOURS AGO I'd like to know how some of the politicians reconcile their christian beliefs with some of the things they do. Shorten, for example, appears to be a serial offender. 17 LIKE Peter 1 HOUR AGO @Greg Shorten must be a regular at confession Italo 2 HOURS AGO This is more on a defence of small or subjective faith rather than of larger beliefs around Christian doctrine. Its central to freedom of self determination as to matters of subjective meaning that appears as consumption often in the form of religious paraphernalia from a Christian amulet to pagan tarot cards. 1 LIKE Chris 2 HOURS AGO Looking forward to reading this. It would of been great to have interviewed Bob Hawke, a man that grew up surrounded by Christian ethos, his father being a minister, how he feels about it now so late in life. Also Ben Chifley and John Curtin would of been fascinating. 4 LIKE Cameron 1 HOUR AGO @Chris Very much agree with you on the Hawke side. I'm an atheist and found it to be a really good article. 1 LIKE Paul 2 HOURS AGO And so Andrew whitewashes the death of children by believing they will all go to Heaven. Presumably they will all play in the same garden as the suicide bombers. Such a happy reunion. One hundred years ago fifty percent of children died before the age of five, usually from infectious disease and accidents. While Christian beliefs may have eased their passage in the surviving community one has to wonder if that same whitewashing stood in the way of germ theory, hygiene, and the separation of sewerage from the water supply. If Jesus loved the world so much all he had to say was wash your hands after going to the toilet and don't defecate up stream from your drinking water. The killing of children won't stop until people stop deluding themselves that they have gone to a better place. It is only the stark comprehension of their absolute end that leads to the protection of children from war. For instance a good protocol may be for helicopter pilots to ask "Are there children in the village?" If the answer is yes buddy lots." Then the pilot should be required to say "The mission is a no go. You are on your own down their. Take it on the chin you are a soldier." 8 LIKE Garry 1 HOUR AGO @Paul Cynical, judgemental and nasty. May you be judged by the same criteria by which you judge others. 12 LIKE Philip1 HOUR AGO @Paul I'm sorry, Paul, but that is absolute rot! If that is all you took away from this extract I would suggest reading it again. 9 LIKE Scott 1 HOUR AGO What a simplistic, naive view. Never seen a shot fired in anger have you? 9 LIKE Peter 2 HOURS AGO I am an Atheist and I have yet had a Christian explain to me why of the three monotheist religions only Christians have the Trinity. 1 LIKE David1 HOUR AGO @Peter Would you stop being an atheist if someone told you? 6 LIKE Archimedes 1 HOUR AGO @Peter As an atheist why do you care? 10 LIKE Philip 1 HOUR AGO @Peter Why does it matter, Peter? Buddhism has the Triple Gem, the Triptaka which is its "Trinity". 2 LIKE Martins 1 HOUR AGO @Peter Because .. if God existed before everything else … then "he" needed to be more than singular. Philosophy 101: "I think therefore I am" is not sufficient: you only know you are you and are in fact thinking because there is something else. (This is usually used as a proof that ideas of God are flawed.) So: it's interesting that only one religion deals with this issue.. 1 LIKE Terry D 1 HOUR AGO I don't know why an Atheist would want to know why God expresses himself as a Trinity. By the way, I found the answer to your question in the Bible. 3 LIKE Peter1 HOUR AGO @Martins As I understand it the three monotheist religions of Judaism Islam and Christianity believe in the One God . So how do Christians explain the Trinity . 1 LIKE Peter 1 HOUR AGO @Terry D great what was it? 1 LIKE Peter 1 HOUR AGO @Terry D great is it a secret or can you tell us the answer ? 2 LIKE Terry D 36 MINUTES AGO @Peter God is invisible spirit. The Holy Spirit is spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus, the Son of God. "I and my Father (the Holy Spirit) are one." - Jesus. "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father (the Holy Spirit)"-Jesus Jesus Christ is the Son of God (God incarnate) is the Holy Spirit in a human body, i.e. "the Word (Holy Spirit) of God made flesh." So One God - using three names for three different theophanic manifestations. (1) Father - we born again by the Holy Spirit. (2) Son of God - sacrificed for the forgiveness our sins. (3) Holy Spirit - God himself teaches true believers right from wrong. All these facts are found in the Bible - no secret. Helen 2 HOURS AGO God save us from values and behaviour like theirs, (if there is one). 3 LIKE Barb 2 HOURS AGO @Helen Christianity has been the foundation for nearly every law on this planet. And why would you ask God to save you if you don't believe in Him? 4 LIKE David2 HOURS AGO @Barb @Helen Not even a little bit true. The christian laws were derived from what societies and cultures had already established to ensure the success of those societies and cultures. 1 LIKE Russ 43 MINUTES AGO @Barb @Helen Absolute tosh. Every community since the dawn of time has operated within the basic concepts of the ten commandments. Why do people in great pain call to their long dead mothers at times. Barb 3 HOURS AGO Unless someone can give me proof positive that God doesn't exist - I will continue to have faith. My faith, which isn't Catholic, btw, has sustained me through some harrowing times and the deaths of some of the dearest to me over the years. To me, God is personal, and something that I willingly choose to believe in. I don't ram it down anyone's throat or harass them into believing. I figure we are all big enough, and ugly enough, to make our own choices in Life and Dying. I comfort myself in knowing that I will be reunited with my family after my death. 15 LIKE John 2 HOURS AGO @Barb Pretty well sums it up Barb. Well done, you've captured my thoughts exactly. 3 LIKE Paul 2 HOURS AGO @Barb Belief requires no proof; but the facts do. If God exists in reality apart from the mind of man there will be evidence. As there would be for fairies, poltergeists, goblins, elves, magic spells and miracles. Not surprisingly no evidence exists. Absolutely no evidence exists and so one can say absolutely none of these things are facts. They just don't exist. 6 LIKE David 2 HOURS AGO @Paul @Barb Paul, you should ponder on the 2nd law of thermodynamics. There you will find your evidence. 6 LIKE Barb 2 HOURS AGO @Paul @Barb Are you married, Paul? How much "faith" did you have in your marriage? Faith comes in all shapes and forms. Why denigrate others who find comfort, belief and succor in their faith? 5 LIKE Peter 2 HOURS AGO @Barb as an Atheist your first sentence explains why. 1 LIKE Andrew3 HOURS AGO That's all well and good, but is Christianity true? 2 LIKE Barb 2 HOURS AGO @Andrew Can you prove it isn't, though? Jack 2 HOURS AGO If this Man "Christ" was not who he said He was it would be the biggest hoaxes the world has ever known! No other historical human has influenced the world as much as He has. This whole discussion should feature the question," explain what love is?" 2 LIKE Jack 2 HOURS AGO @Andrew What is that is not "true". Christianity exist because of Christ. For those who believe in Christ, Christianity is true. 4 LIKE John 3 HOURS AGO Excellent series Greg. My wife and I are both in our 80th year, met in church as teenagers and married in 1961. Our 2 daughters and their husbands are sound Christians and bringing up their children likewise. We have proved God in many ways, praying that He would lead and guide us in many ways. The miracles of creation and the birth of a child are all proof that there is a God. Faith is real. To believe that everything "just happened " is nonsense, to believe that would need more "faith" than believing in God, the glorious creator. 4 LIKE Greg 2 HOURS AGO Absolutely!! 1 LIKE Scott 3 HOURS AGO I have developed a theory that people believe in God because they are fascinated by their own uniqueness and cannot believe it occurred by chance. Notwithstanding that, I also strongly believe in the Christian ethic. 10 LIKE David 2 HOURS AGO @Scott How do you believe it did occur by chance? Damon 4 HOURS AGO Sheridan should take his preachings to the Catholic Times or some other religious circulation. Most Australians have no interest in this drivel and its actually quite cynical to take advantage of an upcoming election to corner the PM into espousing religious beliefs that I am sure are really nothing more than virtue signaling. On Q&A Turnbull has been quite pointed about not wanting to speak about any beliefs, and quickly ditched the topic after saying "He had a keen interest in theology" like most politicians his position wobbles depending on who the audience might be… 3 LIKE Stephen 3 HOURS AGO @Damon So why did you read the article if you weren't interested? 27 LIKE Chris 2 HOURS AGO @Damon Most Australians aren't interested in your drivel either, is my guess. 2 LIKE Jack 2 HOURS AGO @Damon For those with faith there is no "timing" to talk about God. For them is not cynical to talk about their faith in an upcoming election. God is with us all the time regardless of "actual" events in everyday life. 1 LIKE Damon 2 HOURS AGO @Stephen @Damon Because to form a balanced opinion you need to read both sides of the argument. I recommend you try it, there's no enlightenment in an echo chamber. 1 LIKE Damon 2 HOURS AGO @Chris @Damon I'm not a journalist for The Australian Chris… Damon 2 HOURS AGO @Jack @Damon But it is convenient if you want to try and corner the PM into espousing religiosity. No doubt Sheridan told him if he refused to comment he would get a comment from Tony Abbott. 2 LIKE Wendy 1 HOUR AGO @Damon It's either arrogance or the sign of a weak argument to purport to speak on behalf of most Australians. 2 LIKE Robert 5 HOURS AGO It is sad that grown adults need to rely on 'faith' in some imagined 'higher being'. Yet as an atheist, I have realized that god does exist for those who 'believe' in it. God exists entirely and only in the colorful imagination of the believer. Belief in this fantasy seems to get some people through the trials and tribulations they face in life, others depend on alcohol or drugs or tobacco, etc. as a way of coping. Personally, I find that facing up to reality is the best way of coping. 14 LIKE Matthew 4 HOURS AGO @Robert But you assume your reality is proved 5 LIKE David 4 HOURS AGO @Robert you are so amazing. Robert 1 HOUR AGO @David @Robert Gee thanks David! But I have to say that flattery will get you nowhere! Terry D 1 HOUR AGO Atheists have no imagination when it comes to realising the existence of God. Gentle Will 1 HOUR AGO @Robert. Why do you think that, because other people believe in something that you cut off, that the thing they believe in is a 'fantasy'? Most people who believe have spent many years questioning and testing their own belief. You believe that you are alone in facing up to reality - belief in God does not negate facing reality . It simply gives a dimension to life that is absent if your philosophy of life consists of shopping, or social competition or fast cars and consumer goods. These things seem to work as opiates of some of the masses. However, religion and a belief in God allows the believer to reach inside themselves in every circumstance, both good and bad, to try to dredge up and become the best version of themselves possible. It instills a value in the individual, not because they are rich or good-looking, or a good sportsman, but because they exist. It allows for life to be a journey where the soul can grow. That is my reality - it means that each moment and each encounter is more precious, not less. Robert 55 MINUTES AGO Not really Matthew, but I am supremely confident that the 'reality' assumed by religious believers is nothing more than fanciful nonsense. I totally agree with Christopher Hitchens when he says: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." And Carl Sagan who said that: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." What more extraordinary claim Matthew, could there be than a claim of the existence of a 'god'? Reality for me, is indisputable something that we (or at least I do) study in physics. Russ38 MINUTES AGO @Terry D Not true, I have a whole thriving herd of Unicorns and absolutely no need to commit babies to "Limbo" Allan36 MINUTES AGO @Terry D Even the Ayatollah of Atheism admits that God could exist. Peter 5 HOURS AGO My idea of hell is a heaven full of politicians. 7 LIKE Garry 2 HOURS AGO @Peter Ever tried it yourself? Might alter your viewpoint somewhat. 1 LIKE Allan 36 MINUTES AGO @Peter Like any other group of people, politicians include the good, the bad and the ugly. Helen 5 HOURS AGO Why does this paper give so much oxygen to this uninteresting subject. Politicians religious beliefs, (even more so if they were sincere), have no need of public airing. 14 LIKE Adam5 HOURS AGO @Helen agree 100%. I think it's the cost of Greg's insightful foreign analysis. 5 LIKE Damon 4 HOURS AGO @Helen Agreed I'm sick of it. 5 LIKE Charmaine 3 HOURS AGO Well, I'm someone who is interested in it. Who are you to say what should be interesting. 17 LIKE Robert 3 HOURS AGO I think we absolutely have a right to know if our politicians are making decisions based on any factor other than the nation's best interests. Helen 2 HOURS AGO @Charmaine their true values are reflected in their actions, enough said! 2 LIKE Hilary 47 MINUTES AGO @Helen I found it very interesting. Allan 35 MINUTES AGO @Helen Uninteresting to you, fascinating to me, and I sure that both of us have our supporters and detractors.
Radical obedience
Inside Planetshakers, the Melbourne megachurch where talking in tongues, faith healing and huge crowds are all part of the service.
From The Weekend Australian Magazine July 21st, 2018 8 min read
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Nicole Yow performs at Planetshakers. Picture: Planetshakers
Nicole Yow strides across the stage, microphone in hand, not so much speaking to the huge crowd at Planetshakers as leading them in a rally of cheers: "Lift your hands right now! Lift your hands because I want to release God into your lives right now. Thank you, Jesus." She pauses, just for a second, walks across the stage again, high energy, high intensity, the music from electric guitars and singers behind her swelling when she pauses, trailing off when she resumes. The auditorium is clothed in darkness; only the stage is lit. Yow's tone rises; she is not shouting, but urgency and insistence ring through her voice. "You know what they say about your generation? They've written you off. What if we were to be radically obedient? Lift your hands now, Planetboom teenagers!"
This is a typical Sunday service at Planetshakers, the biggest Pentecostal church in Melbourne. It has five churches, or campuses, as it calls them, across the city. Most Sundays its combined attendances are about 8000. It has about 15,000 regular members who attend church about once a fortnight.
The city campus at Planetshakers doesn't look like a traditional church. I spend most of a Sunday there and find the place and the people invigorating, full of energy, as friendly as a bowl of punch on a hot afternoon and guilelessly likeable.
Pentecostals, like most Christians, generally get a bad press in the mainstream media these days. They know all about that. They're OK with it, neither too fussed nor too paranoid. They don't want their efforts misunderstood, but their efforts look pretty clear to me. Inscrutability is not a feature commonly associated with Pentecostals. They may sometimes speak in tongues, but when they speak English they make themselves as clear as day. You would have to work hard to misunderstand what the folks at Planetshakers are on about.
Nicole Yow at Planetshakers' city campus. Picture: Julian Kingma
The city campus in Melbourne is a huge converted warehouse. Over the course of several hours I wander around most of it. There is the big, central auditorium, where they have services; a space just in front of the stage where people come forward when they are called or when the Spirit moves them. And hundreds of chairs. Outside the auditorium is a coffee shop and a kiosk selling Planetshakers music and memorabilia. There is a children's playground, a useful and much-patronised resource. Round the corner is a basketball ring; the day I visit a bunch of kids are hanging out with a pastor and shooting hoops. There's also a designated catch-up lounge, and on the other side of the building a music recording studio and a little television studio: Planetshakers posts a lot of spots on YouTube. The band is huge in Christian music, both in Australia and internationally, and from everything I hear that day it's good quality, musically somewhere between upbeat soft pop and rock 'n' roll. If I'd paid good money to go to the service as a rock concert I would have felt it was good value.
I meet both the founder, Pastor Russell Evans, and his collaborator, Pastor Neil Smith. They transformed the building when they took it over, removing - downstairs at least - any accretions of stuffy office-style formality. They emphasised the industrial look: stark, bold, almost Brutalist. But with its huge ceilings and cavernous spaces, combined with busy clusters of activity and lots of people, it doesn't feel unwelcoming. It's a coherent, inner-city aesthetic, but an aesthetic rarely turned to the purposes of God, or at least not to the purposes of God through organised religion. The total staff establishment is around 80, a big workforce for any Christian organisation in Australia.
Pentecostalism is the fastest growing branch of Christianity. In its modern form it was originally a movement within evangelical Protestantism. There is now a huge swag of churches that identify denominationally as Pentecostal. There are also Pentecostal traditions within the mainline churches: there is a first cousin in Catholicism, a big, lively and growing "charismatic" movement (charismatic and Pentecostal are almost interchangeable terms; the former connotes a slightly more conservative ambience).
Modern Pentecostalism had the most unlikely roots. It grew out of the Azusa Street Revival at the outset of the 20th century. This was a mixed-race church in Los Angeles led by African-American preacher William Seymour, the son of freed slaves. There were Pentecostal preachers around before Seymour, but he pioneered the new style with its heavy emphasis on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the two most controversial being healing and speaking in tongues.
Some 40-odd years ago I attended a couple of Catholic Pentecostal prayer group meetings. They consisted of students or people who had just graduated and I was there mainly out of curiosity, as an observer. Most of the evening was fairly conventional. It ended with tea and bikkies and convivial socialising. But at the start of the meeting, without any particular announcement or signal, all the regular members began to give voice in sounds that were independent but seemed to meld together. They weren't words, yet they contained consonants and vowels. It seemed spontaneous, independent and yet unified. The oddest element of it was that it started off simultaneously, and was conducted mostly at one tone, but then rose a notable tone or two before its cut-off, which was remarkably precise. The nearest sound I could compare it to is that of a symphony orchestra tuning up before the concert begins.
The experience didn't overwhelm me as miraculous, nor did I think it, or my friends, phony in any way. Pentecostals believe speaking in tongues is the Holy Spirit directing them in prayer, that they are given a divine language, that the experience is the Spirit speaking through them. As with most things in the Pentecostal tradition, it is entirely experiential.
I meet Nicole Yow before the service I attend and then speak to her at length afterwards. She is a youth pastor and brims with self-confidence. She was introduced to the church by a friend 12 years ago. "My parents are from Malaysia," she tells me. "I came from an unchurched background - Dad's a Buddhist, Mum's agnostic. I was born in Australia five years after they migrated here. I went to a nominally Christian school but by Year 7, aged 12, I decided I would be an atheist."
A couple of years later she was, she says, trying different things - clubbing, smoking, boys: "I was trying to find something bigger than me. My friends, who were involved in the youth ministry here, kept asking me along. I'd never been to church before. They kept talking about it and I could see how engaged they were. When I came along I thought it was like a rock concert. It was so vibrant, so engaging, so contemporary. It offered a real progressive understanding of what is faith. I made an informed decision [to commit to Christ] three or four months later."
What did her parents think? "At the beginning, because I was a teenager, they thought it was just a social activity and might affect my study. At first they didn't realise what it meant for me. But then they saw the impact it had on me, the hope it gave me. Mum's come along to church with me about eight times, Dad about three times. Even though Mum wouldn't say she has a personal faith, she thinks it's a great way to spend your life."
Planetshakers is the biggest Pentecostal church in Melbourne. Picture: Planetshakers
The Planetshakers service I attend has hundreds in the congregation, a mainly young - twenties and thirties - group and predominately of Chinese background. Planetshakers has lots of different groups on the go: Planetboom for high school students and the self-explanatory PlanetUNI and PlanetBusiness. There's work with Syrian refugees, urban-life groups that meet in people's homes, Bible study groups, classes for new Christians, a seemingly endless roster of activities. At the service I attend people bring Christmas gifts for the families, and especially the children, of prisoners in jail. These Planetshakers seem pretty ecumenical.
During the service a short video is played; it features a young man with a painful but certainly not life-threatening ailment experiencing a pretty sudden recovery after prayer. At the end of services people are free to go up the front and talk to Planetshakers pastors, staff or just fellow worshippers, if they wish get help in prayer or counselling or just general empathy.
The whole Pentecostal experience is not only experiential but highly personal. Some people cry, some experience meaningful dreams, some have a sense of peace, some experience help with illness.
The most controversial aspect of Pentecostal practice these days is surely faith healing. In the brilliantly produced and illustrated little book Eternity, which Planetshakers gives to new members, is this rather bold claim: "One of the most incredible and mind-blowing realities of receiving Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life is that you automatically have the authority and power to operate in the miraculous just as Jesus did when He walked the earth." However, that sentence is balanced to some extent by another, which says: "Though every believer can operate in these gifts to a certain measure, the Holy Spirit gives some the ability to excel in them." In other words, not everyone gets every gift, or not everyone gets every gift to the same extent.
It would be wrong to single out Pentecostals here. Most mainstream Christian denominations believe in the possibility of miraculous cures or just the general efficacy of prayer for the ill, otherwise they wouldn't pray for the sick, and they all do. My sense is that the people here approach the business of faith healing in a responsible way. They believe that people can be healed by God and they offer to pray for people. They are careful in their interactions and always advise people to seek medical attention. Praying for the sick is not the enemy of modern medicine at Planetshakers.
This is certainly a booming, lively, active, growing Christian community. Pentecostals are good at modern stuff partly because they've been doing the modern thing for a long time. When some Christians have tried to make their message culturally relevant, that has meant effectively changing or watering down the message. The Pentecostals, on the other hand, are using the most contemporary techniques imaginable to deliver a traditional message.
Bill and Chloe Shorten, left, at Wesley Uniting Church in Canberra with Malcolm and Lucy Turnbull in 2016 AAP
Malcolm Turnbull, a convert to Catholicism, avoids talking of his private beliefs in public but has spoken more often than any prime minister of love.
Mr Turnbull also reveals that he loves the tradition and ritual of religion: "The continuity of the tradition of faith and observance is very important. Whenever I am sharing the Eucharist, I reflect on the fact that Christians have been sharing this sacrament for thousands of years in one form or another."
I asked him if he believed in life after death: "Yes, I do. I don't know in what form. Let me turn the question around. Do I believe that literally your life is snuffed out at death and there is absolutely nothing after? No. But what life after death looks like, that truly is a mystery. I guess we'll all find out at some point."
Bill Shorten is also a believing Christian. He converted from Catholicism to Anglicanism when he married his wife, Chloe, but he does not reject his Catholic upbringing.
Like Mr Turnbull, he was at first reluctant to talk about his faith, but in our interview he told me: "I'm very mindful of not trying to appear as a moraliser. How people live their lives is up to them. However, for me personally, my faith has a role in my life and a lot of my values are informed by my faith."
Although the Opposition Leader appreciates the Christian faith his parents gave him, in his childhood he came close to the most evil elements of Christianity: "My parish priest at Sacred Heart, Father Kevin O'Donnell, emerged as a notorious, monstrous paedophile."
This experience did not make him disbelieve in the Christian message: "It didn't make me doubt the values of Christianity, just some of the messengers, and some of the institutional responses. The idea we should love one another - that doesn't change just because you've got people who behave badly or evilly."
Mr Shorten rejected (though didn't criticise) the arguments of atheism: "I know when I watch my children that there's something bigger than each of us individually. I can find scientific explanations of what happens, but when I look at my youngest child I can see that there are deeper intensities at work.
"Love, unconditional love. Gift, the gift of life."
Senator Penny Wong, who worships with the Uniting Church, told me that after the death of her brother, her faith was particularly important to her: "There have been periods when I haven't practised, periods when I haven't prayed. Periods when I've been angry - maybe after my brother's death. But there was no period where I thought I could live without the idea of God. I don't remember ever having the sense that I denied the existence of God."
"When times have been hard, at different times of my life, when I've felt alone or lonely, faith has been important to me. There are also moments of joy when you can feel faith or feel grace."
Her fellow senator Kristina Keneally told me there was a time she felt very angry with God: "I have a stillborn daughter, Caroline. She's my second child. I had this real sense I felt I knew how to have a baby. It hit me very hard. I can remember being very angry with God."
But she never lost her religious belief: "I have maintained belief all my life. I have had plenty of moments of doubt about specific practices. I have complete and utter disagreement with the Catholic Church on some of their teachings.
"But I do believe in the real presence of God in the Eucharist. I do believe that the Bible is divinely inspired. I do believe that the sacraments transmit grace."
Former NSW premier Mike Baird recalled the exact moment, in his teens, when he made a deep, lifelong commitment to Christ: "Two good mates and I were in a Bible group. One of our mates, Jeff, said to us - you blokes just don't understand how much Jesus loves you.
"At first I thought: what's got into him? I accepted it and put it aside. But I started to think about it later.
"A few months later, around a camp fire, I came to accept that Jesus had died for my sins. I accepted him publicly and I haven't looked back since."
Contemporary Australian politicians are extremely reluctant to talk about their private religious beliefs, but in researching my book, which makes the case for religious belief and then seeks to examine the beliefs of a range of Australians, I discovered that our politicians have deep, mostly hidden, interior lives - lives of faith.
John 1 DAY AGO
This is a bit unusual for a mainstream newspaper in 21st century Australia - someone has said something that isn't negative - and perhaps even slightly positive, about Christians. Amazing.
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Christopher 1 DAY AGO
Great commentary, Greg. Good on you for going in there and seeing what it's like for yourself. Christians are good people.
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In our interview, he opens up about his private religious beliefs: "Right at the heart of the Christian message is a message of love. Now love itself is a mystery which baffles people in every age. The sort of selfless love of Jesus is even more mysterious. The way I often think of it is that when we love selflessly, that is when we get closest to the divine."
Greg Sheridan
** End of article